Tanks and no tanks
July 2 2009 by Ellen Roseman
I’m talking about hot water heating, a topic that ignited a blaze of controversy. Some people swore by tankless water heaters, a technology long used in Europe but new here. Others who replaced their hot water tank with an on-demand system wanted to rip it out of their home.
Some comments ended up in my blog post a few weeks ago, but more are coming in. It seems everyone has an opinion on how to save energy. It’s a subject that makes readers get really get hot under the collar.
Let’s pay tribute to Dan, a homeowner who shared his experience with others and came up with than 500 tips for saving energy, of which 275 cost absolutely nothing to do. You can find his tips broken down into subcategories here.
“Our objective is in part to remind people that they don’t need to wait for government handouts to reduce their household utility bills at any time of the year, as well as provide a quick list that people can access whenever they want at no cost,” he says. “After all, most of the items on the list were submitted to us free of charge.”
Let’s also give a shout to Jim Davidson’s book, which gave lots of advice about how to make your car go further before filling up the gas tank. Some of his 75 tips made people exceed the speed limit with indignation.
GG
Jul 2 2009
I had a tankless water heater installed in my house last August and we are at the point of going back to a conventional water heater.
From day 1, there has been fluctuation in water temperature for the first 5 or 6 minutes, so that we don’t take the chance of going into the shower until we have basically wasted lots of water and gas.
The water at some points goes from moderate to freezing to hot enough to almost scald you.
Technicians from the company that installed it and the distributor have come to my house on 2 occasions and seen for themselves the problem. The person from the distributor has stated that the unit is functioning as it should, so tough luck for me.
Anyway, my opinion to someone thinking of a tankless water heater would be - beware - you could be in for a large, expensive disappointment.
RA
Jul 2 2009
I have been designing low energy, passive solar, environmentally sustainable, residential homes, renovation and additions for the past 25 or so years. I have seen it all two or three times, meaning how often I have seen the wheel reinvented.
Tankless units can waste water. Let’s say you are the first one up in the morning and you need hot water, so you turn the hot water tap on. The unit in the basement senses the water flow and call for hot water and sparks to life.
The first thing it does is turn the exhaust fan on and lets it run for 10 to 15 seconds to “purge” the chamber of any possible residual gas fumes (a safety feature to keep it from blowing up if there is).
It then cycles the fan off and sets up to spark up again this time with the fan but also the gas burner. They are called instantaneous, but it still takes it a little time to come up to temperature and then bring the flowing water up to temperature.
Then there is the usual wait for hot water to get up from the basement, as with a conventional hot water tank. Meanwhile, the water is running down the drain as this is happening.
Secondly is limited gallon per minute flow. You can oversize the unit, which would make it less efficient, but if properly sized it can only instantaneously heat 2 to 3 gallons per minute. Oversizing might give you 4 to 5 gpm, but then it would be wasting energy.
A typical shower takes 2.5 gpm, which, if the unit is properly sized, means you can’t be, for example, doing a load of laundry or dishes at the same time, let alone also thinking about using the tankless unit to do space heating as well. I have heard of complaints of this where the cure is to install a storage tank.
Thirdly is cycling (I only heard of and realized this a few days ago). If you have a single lever tap, meaning a tap with one lever that you swing from side to side for hot and cold water, and you are rinsing vegetables, a glass, brushing your teeth, or doing whatever where you need a little shot of water and you have the lever set for mostly cool water, because it is a single lever there will be a little bit of water flow from the hot side which would be enough to spark the unit to life. The instantaneous water heater is triggered by water flow.
This one doesn’t affect you as much. What do you care if the unit is cycling on and off and on and off and on and off, etc., unless it shortens its life span? I haven’t seen any statistics on this.
Just some thoughts.
AW
Jul 2 2009
Tankless lasts at least 2 to 3 times longer than tank
Tankless warranties are probably double that of a tank, on average.
How much is that extra space worth to you? Ask your friendly neighbourhood builder what 16 square feet of living space is worth.
You get a $315 rebate from NRCan for tankless (EcoEnergy); $315 rebate from Province of Ontario for tankless (EcoEnergy); and a $300 rebate from Enbridge.
Also, a $3,000 tankless installed would receive a $300 tax credit, thanks to the new Home Renovation Tax Credit Program from the government.
That’s a good $1,230 in rebates! It would make a tankless more cost effective than almost any tank out there! Renting? $33 a month vs. $22 or so for a power vent, or even $12 or so for conventional.
The rebates are like getting 37 months of free rent!!!! Or over 3 years! How’s that for payback or even better, return on investment?
KM
Jul 2 2009
In my home, the decision to install a tankless hot water system was accelerated due to an existing leaky tank, but I would encourage others to consider dumping their hefty water tank rental fees in order to take advantage of the exceptional tax breaks and Federal and Provincial grants currently available for this home upgrade.
It seems to me that the rebates and energy saving numbers produce a conservative 3-year payback in my case (avoiding buying a 40 gallon tank), and probably less than a 5-year payback for those who decide to escape the clutches of their water tank rental company.
I don’t see our family offsetting energy savings by using more hot water, simply because this device provides unlimited supply.
PS: The unit we purchased comes with a 12-year warranty on the heat exchanger and while it’s almost maintenance free, there is some periodic maintenance required for lime build-up (less so in our Toronto area water supply). This, however, is not a complicated process for a homeowner to manage personally, if he or she is so inclined.
brad
Jul 3 2009
On the subject of energy efficiency (not necessarily tankless heaters), it’s worth noting that in these times of low interest rates an investment in energy efficiency improvements can provide very impressive returns — on average 16 percent and as high as 41 percent, which is hard to come by even in the stock market unless you’re really lucky.
This rather ancient graphic is way out of date in terms of stock market returns, but the paybacks for energy efficiency investments are still valid:
http://hes.lbl.gov/hes/profitable.html
You shell out some money up front for the energy efficiency improvements (e.g., efficient lights, efficient fridge, efficient washer, whatever), but the money you save in energy costs pays for the difference within a few years and from then on it’s clear profit.
The key is to make these decisions at the time you’re going to have to replace your equipment anyway.
If you just bought a new fridge last year you won’t save money by replacing it with an Energy Star model this year. But if you have a 20-year-old fridge that’s busted and you need a new one, spending a little more up front to buy an efficient model becomes an investment as your energy bills go down.
Furthermore, if you take your energy bill savings and invest them, your gains are even higher.
Dan
Jul 4 2009
We evaluated Sears and EnerWise over a year ago for a Rinnai natural gas tankless water heater.
We decided that, even after the ecoENERGY Residential Retrofit program’s rebates (one from the Feds and the matching one from the Province), that our financial payback was still around 8 years.
With the warranty on the unit only 5 years, I wasn’t willing to take that risk.
Dan
Joren
Jul 5 2009
I have had two homes with tankless water heaters (both Luna Baxi but different models) and the difference is night and day. Both units are “combination boilers” meaning they heat water for domestic use, as well as to heat the home.
Note that these systems had domestic hot water as the priority. If you are having a shower and the heat kicks on, the unit will not heat water for the house heating - you will always have hot water for showers, dishes as the priority.
First off, if anyone is considering tankless, I would strongly recommend that you avoid Baxi, and stick with a more popular name like Rinnai (made in Japan). I lived in Japan for a number of years and Rinnai is all over. Mine worked great! From my experience, I’m told that because our climate gets SO cold here in Canada, that the temperature rise in units popular in Europe or other “warmer” climates is not sufficient. My experience would appear to back that up.
First home: yes, it takes a while for the hot water to reach you. Could not take a bath in winter as the rise in temperature was not sufficient to heat the water to the degree I wanted it and last until the tub was sufficiently filled. So it was showers from then on. When mine went on the fritz, it was difficult to find a technician that was familiar with this brand - then it was harder getting parts for it.
Second home - as I mentioned - also a Baxi (which almost killed the deal on the home purchase) but the model is newer and seems to work much better. I am able to have a bath (but don’t much as now I’m trying to conserve water) and yes, it still takes a few minutes for the hot water to reach the tap, but I’m not paying to heat water 24/7. (Plus which, as I live in a townhouse downtown Toronto, there isn’t room for a traditional hot water tank anyway.
I like the idea of a tankless. I’d choose a Rinnai anyday, and make sure that it is sized correctly for your existing and possible needs.
One bonus I really like is that because the tankless heater operates on about 100w of energy, if theres a power failure, I can plug it into my portable battery pack and still have hot water for showers. Not that that happens often, but it does happen.
YB
Jul 6 2009
I own several houses. My tenants all reimburse me for the utilities when I provide them with copies of the bills.
At the beginning of June, a salesman from a company, Newten, approached one of my tenants and made a pitch to a 17 year old girl.
He said the hot water tank in the house had to be replaced immediately with a new high-efficiency one and this was government mandated. An adult was not home that weekend, so she allowed the tank to be replaced, unbeknownst to me or her mother.
The issues I had with this salesman were:
He had a 17 year old girl sign a contract.
He had someone who was not the owner of the house sign the contract…No one in the house is an owner and they are not legally authorized to make any changes.
He asked the girl to provide him with the account number for Enbridge Gas, which was on the statement provided to the tenant.
My name and billing address was on the statement and it could be clearly shown on the attached letter that the people living in the house were only tenants.
The 17 year old girl’s name was not listed on any documents. She claims she was not asked if she was over 18 or if she was authorized to make these arrangements. She did not read the documents nor was she given time to. The direction was that she was only authorizing the replacement.
The document the girl signed was a rental contract for a larger hot water tank with a much higher rate per month than we currently pay to Direct Energy.
I could not get the salesman to call me back once I found out about this replacement. (When the mother came home later the same day, the tank was replaced and she contacted me about it.)
I own another house on the same street and he made the same pitch to my tenant in that house. The tenant (over 18 this time) signed the contract and agreed to replace the hot water tank. She was not asked if she was authorized to make these arrangements.
Fortunately, her spouse came home later and was able to get hold of the company and tell them to cancel the replacement, as they were not authorized to sign anything. He also could not get the salesman to call him back.
Now, this is not the only company making these door-to-door calls. My second house just had another salesman call on them this past week and gave them the same spiel about “government mandated” to replace hot water tanks.
My 20 year old daughter, who lives in a different neighbourhood, was also approached by another company and given the same pitch that my tenants have been given.
I phoned Newten and after many phone calls to them and Direct Energy, I was able to get the “mandated” tank out and a new hot water tank from Direct Energy back in its place.
The only good thing that resulted from this mess is that I got a new tank, which was totally unnecessary (it was 7 years old)…but at a cost to Direct Energy.
I’m very concerned about what is going on here, especially when seniors are approached by these overzealous salespeople. The charges are much higher and they upsell you on the size of the tank which is totally not required.
If there’s any way you can get the message out to everyone about this new type of “Door-to-Door” sales (including a front page article), I’d really appreciate it, and I’m sure all Toronto Star readers would too.
KS
Jul 8 2009
I’ve gone back to a tank after having a second tankless installed in the past year. I had many problems with both.
Enbridge gave red tags for carbon monoxide levels too high both inside and outside the house, not to mention the problems I was having with “cold water sandwich” (water going freezing in the middle of the shower, then blasting in hot until it levels back to the temp it was set at).
My gas bills have gone up by 30% since it was installed. I was told by the Navien rep that some of the problem was the low pressure water saving shower heads and low levels of warm required by my appliances.
I would need to change back to full pressure showers and run the hot water on full next to my laundry machine if I was to do a warm load. (It just seems crazy to waste water like that.)
I gather the lack of pressure caused the tankless to not respond correctly and in the end use more gas.
I’m still not sure why I had such high levels of carbon monoxide from the machine. I wonder how well these machines have actually been tested in real situations like the average home, where water is going on and off for short periods of time to do things like wash hands or rinse a cup.
I don’t believe the savings are there and this product is good for the environment. Glad to finally have hot water after being without for almost two weeks.
Traciatim
Jul 28 2009
I think an ideal setup is a solar heated pre-heat system, a larger ‘whole house’ style electric hot water heating system, and then smaller point of use systems that are electronically controlled to output the proper temperature.
Since many electric hot water heating systems have trouble with flow rates, especially in cases where multiple faucets are being used, then the solar pre-heater will help.
Also, on important items like your dishwasher and showers, you could have smaller booster heaters for each point of use or each room.
Though expensive to set up, this would probably give you unlimited hot water in almost every application.
Though on the other hand, since Canadians heat their homes from about Sept. 1 to June 30 of the next year, all that ‘wasted’ hot water tank heat just leaks in to your house anyway.
So why bother caring and work on home insulation/windows/air-sealing instead.